Serious question - when will *THE* Genesis music format arrive? by Dais! at 1:20 AM EDT on May 11, 2010
So there was GYM, and that wasn't perfect.
And then there was VGM, but apparently that isn't perfect.
(somewhere in the middle there was GSR)
Then there's the 32x and the Sega CD, which to my limited understanding both could have their audio (the stuff that isn't redbook) reproduced in the standard Genesis format, only for some reason nobody is doing that. Am I wrong?
Just...lay it out for me, simple and stupid.
Are we all waiting on some upcoming new Genesis/32x/MCD format, some GENSF or whatever that will blow everything else away?
Unknownfile was working on MDSF back in 2007 or 2008, and it seemed like it was near completion, but then that somehow died hard and I haven't heard a word about the format or anyone working on it since.
Uhh, you make it sound like there's no Dreamcast sound format... When there freaking is. And no, neither GYMs nor VGMs are not streams. They are sound CPU register logs.
Personally, the title I'm most interested in ripping* is Waterworld, which I found to have a surprisingly enjoyable rawness to it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=696g2CYjUVg
*acknowledging that my interest has no actual correlation to the effort I'm willing to put forth
I don't want to spend the time making a VGM rip if another superior format is on the horizon. I have enough neurotic problems re: imperfection already.
I'd also like to see some sets of 32x music and the non-redbook from Sega CD titles (like Snatcher), but I vaguely recall people saying either that VGM wasn't ready or that it would be a waste to do such rips when another format would be coming along soon.
spoiler alert by unknownfile at 10:00 PM EDT on May 12, 2010
it's actually because the debuggers for 32x and sega cd suck ass
me too for the most part, though it would be cool to have 32X and SCD PCM soundtracks. don't really mind whether that's done with VGM or a new xSF format, either way works. :] *insert groveling*
The YM2612 is a mystery of creation that no one has been able to emulate 100%!
VGM is fine.. It's the players that are still imperfect. If there's a soundtest you can always rip to WAVE using Fusion, it's as close as it gets. That of course means much over overhead. I just want my AAC Megadrive album to take with me! VGM isn't portable.
The Mega-CD adds the Ricoh RF5C164 chip, which gives 8 extra sound channels, all capable of sampled sounds, to the Mega Drive's YM2612 and SN76489 chips. (which provide a total of 18 channels, with the YM2612's 6 channels and PSG's 4)
I don't think VGM can encapsulate so much channel awesomeness!
What about ValleyBell's VGM container btw? No new word for months now.
It's not that VGM can't emulate that many channels, per se; it's that there's no dedicated area in the format to store the data for the SCD's sound chip (or the 32X's, for that matter) or the sample data itself. As such, the players likewise don't emulate those chips. If anyone can come up with a feasible way to store all that data and someone can make a player emulating the chips which supports the extended format, VGM can support SCD and 32X. Good luck with that, though.
@holyice7: DSFs are pretty much as close to proper hardware as they can get, so I don't really see what you're talking about. SSFs need a bit of work, granted, but it's still much better than it used to be few years ago.
@Knurek: I hope that either my Skies of Arcadia set or DSF plugin are out of date, because if that's the case, then it's a little depressing, but I understand the limitations. I'm not trying to complain for no reason.
I had some funny issue with VGM when I was re-doing the Sonic 3D Blast rip; the percussion was all out of whack and fuzzy, and completely unlike the game I remembered. It had something to do with what JLost was saying, but I can't remember the exact reason. I just know it didn't sound right, and I think that's the problem Dais! is having.
I used the VGM plugin for winamp. A couple different versions, too. Then I broke down and went to GYM, which provided a accurate representation of the music.
Had I had then the sound card I have now, I would have simply recorded the output of the emulator into an uncompressed format, and edited it from there, but that was then and this is now. And now, there is a new GYM set up on Zophar's for S3DB.
My point about my soundcard is that it has some fancy play/record function to output whatever sounds the programs on my PC are making to an audio-in of some kind, which I can then record in lossless formats as I wish.
I'm saying that if I'd had this sound card then, I could have simply recorded the game emulator's output directly into a streamed format, rather than fiddling around with an obscure audio format, or emulated sound that wasn't designed for the system I was using.
Most soundcards\integrated tend to try to hide and disable the "WaveOutMix" or "What 'U' Hear" recording inputs due to fear of "copyright infringement", and it's almost always disabled and hidden (in dumb ways) in Windows 7\Vista.
But for most, some sound cards that do this feature tend to have a little noise in the recording input, which is why I tend to use emulator wave dumps rather than recording from input's like that.
While imperfect, I've been known to take a male-male audio cable, and plug one end into the audio-out, and the other end into the microphone/audio-in. As for what kind of degradation in quality this results in, I have no idea. But it's what I've done in the past (on rare occasions), and it worked for me.
Though, I've also used the "output to WAV" setting which, as you said, is hidden, obtuse, and very difficult to find. For a month, I thought my microphone jack was broken (or, something relating to recording) because of the settings I had enabled years earlier. For whatever reason, no audio inputs were being recorded. It turned out I disabled numerous audio settings, so that I could record directly from something else (it's been more than a year, I don't really remember what was going on).
Anyway, yah, completely agreed. The settings are hidden, and a serious pain to work with. It's caused me numerous issues, when I've needed it. Mouser X over and out.
Most soundcards do have this function on Vista and 7 and to enable it, go to Control Panel --> Sound --> Recording Tab then right click show hidden/disabled devices and enable anything like Mono/Stereo Mix or any of the above Ruk was talking about.
Its funny because all Realtek chipsets seem to have it, but the expensiveish Creative card we have doesn't have it. X_X
Creative cards are supposed to have "What U Hear", "MIDI Synth", and "Wave", there's supposed to be a driver supplied by Creative themselves to fix that in Windows 7, but I'm surprised you still don't see it Elven.. Maybe Creative is being shit.. They never WHQL sign their drivers either, but who the even cares about WHQL driver signing other than M$..?
I think Creative cards come with it's own mixer separate the windoze one, I've always used that to switch recording inputs, but due to Vista\Windows 7's new audio API, most of that's broken now...
Please don't confuse inaccurate players with faulty VGM format.
That seems to be the (incorrect) consensus these days. VGM logging specs may be imperfect in hindsight, but no one has proven that these issues (logging rate, DAC stuff) are even audible. All VGMs I've tried play perfectly in Kega Fusion and Genesis Plus GX.
When is there going to be, xSF\SID style Mega Drive music where it's basically a stripped ROM with only the music data and playback code?
Although I am impressed that, at long last 32X and SegaCD PCM are being thrown on here, maybe I'll finally get to listen to the music off SegaCD Snatcher without having to listen to YouTube video's for that.
People aren't interested in Genesis/FM synthesis. The sound is too "harsh." People are much more likely to listen to Super Nintendo music, for example, because it's "softer."
Grab someone off the street and make them listen to Dynamite Headdy. Their ears will bleed. Make that same person listen to Plok. The sampled sounds are much more palatable to the untrained ear. One example; you should be able to understand the point.
FM synthesis (YM2612 in particular) is an acquired taste.
"People" as in both the general public and classic video game music enthusiasts. Genesis is less popular.
"FM synthesis (YM2612 in particular) is an acquired taste." is a different statement to "People aren't interested in Genesis/FM synthesis." I can say very categorically that lots of people are very interested in FM synthesis, a lot of people think using VOPM and TFM are the best means of writing FM chipmusic on windows.
I never was too into the Mega Drive's FM Synthesis due to how, odd the chip is in terms of sound production compared to the other FM chips, though it's not as *bad* as the OPLL (I'll admit, the only thing that the OPLL sounds good for is Phantasy Star 1), it could of been atleast as good as a YM2151 as far as FM Synthesis could go.
I don't understand what brought about a chip like the YM2612 into play, or why Sega had to use it as the chip for the Mega Drive... I always and still think the "DAC" on it, is extremely crude, but hey, atleast it means you can easily rip the digitized sound off a Mega Drive ROM through hex editing... Since it is 8-bit PCM and extremely simple to figure out.
but you aren't talking about music, you are talking about the technology, which can only be as good as the music written for it. the vast majority of genesis soundtracks have mediocre FM programming because of how complex it is. a minority of people were able to fully understand it and really do anything decent and dynamic with it. seriously, the vast majority of genesis music sounds like butt because of this. it is way more complex than sample-based writing.
it's not that much different on the SNES side either. sample quality on soundtracks ranges from effing good to horrible.
tl;dr both are great given the right musicians and sound engineers. I would say music is cool because of the ends rather than the means.
The "butt-sounding" music (aesthetic) has a certain character of its own. "People" struggle to listen beyond the aesthetic and grasp the meaning. That's why video game music garners no real respect. Lost context and perspective. The means define video game music.
It doesn't matter whether the music is "butt-sounding" or complex and dynamic. "People" hear unfamiliar and say, "Ugh."
"people" struggle with any music that does not offer up a context or message they understand. jazz, classical, film music, various instrumental genres etc. get a bad rep for the same reason, they are unfamiliar and people don't get it, even when there's nothing really to get. it only tends to be muzos who can really dig music without needing to know what it means or how it fits.
so yes image/context/semantics are important factors in music to the average joe, whether they realise it or not. vgm fans are just as "guilty". most will only listen to soundtracks from games they've played. it's the same principle of relying on context. i'm not saying it's bad, it's just a phenomena nonetheless.
anyway it's a separte debate. as for means defining video game music, that's incorrect. there is nothing intrinsically special about music in video games. it's just music like any other type of music and can be taken on face value the same way. like other music it can be experienced in context or not. if means defined video game music, then what about all those games that don't use archaic soundchips for their music? etc. it doesn't do any good to have rose-tinted glasses.
Not sure if this has been mentioned before, but it seems that there's an official Sega Genesis SDK ROM floating around the 'net, named 'Sega Art Tool' and 'GEMS' (more info@hidden-palace.org).
GEMS is a generic sound driver, which supports Z80, and people are already making their own songs + injecting them into Genesis ROMs (@ Sonic Retro forums).
Is it possible that the GEMS driver could be used as a emu-base for a winamp plugin? It seems the hardest part would be to rip individual music data from the Genesis ROMS...
Needs moar source code for documentation to make it easier to add all these new chips to Game_Music_Emu. Well, it sort of makes it easier than reading a specification document.