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- by Nisto at 5:32 PM EDT on August 20, 2018
- So, I finally got a disc with CAVERN to play on my PS1, and noticed the recent rip provided by Squareoft74 is a bit different from the rip I made. The delay on my rip is much greater. Secondly, the waveform on his rip appears to be inverted compared to all other rips (maybe that's expected from older PS1 models though?) So I decided to do a comparison; I measured the distance of two specific sample points (~1 min length) which are distinct and clearly visible in all rips of the track. The OST rip is used as the base for "correctness". To analyze the waveforms, I use iZotope RX 2 with interpolation disabled.
https://pastebin.com/raw/RXBE2d0y
I was slightly bothered to see such a delay on my rip. I'm not sure what caused it, but it's probably from a number of things:
- I have a slim PSOne, and looking at Sony's history, I'm gonna guess later models are overall less accurate
- My PS1 is hard-modded since long ago (2004/2005); not even sure what chip anymore
- The PSF executable is NTSC-J, but the console is PAL
- Recording flaw? I recorded via DirectSound in Audacity using a simple RCA->3.5mm adapter
Anyway, would be interesting to see more hardware recordings of CAVERN, if anyone else is able/willing to contribute.
- by Squaresoft74 at 8:18 PM EDT on August 20, 2018
- Can you provide your test iso ?
The record i made was on a PAL 1002 and the executable was sent via an Xplorer flashed with Nocash's bios clone so maybe that made a difference ?
I could try other records with this setup using different "Video Mode" settings and see what it gives (Auto, Ntsc, Pal).
My 1002 has a first gen modchip so i could also try with your disc and the original Sony BIOS.
I also have 7502 and 102 consoles i could test on this way.
EDIT:
"I recorded via DirectSound"
I have Audacity set to use "MME".
https://ttmanual.audacityteam.org/man/Device_Toolbar
""On Windows XP or earlier (given a recent computer), DirectSound's shorter path to the hardware should produce lower latency than MME.
On Windows Vista, Windows 7 and Windows 8, DirectSound may have only slightly lower latency than MME because both interfaces are emulated. Selecting DirectSound and enabling both "Exclusive Mode" boxes in Windows "Sound" allows Audacity to request audio direct from the device without resampling. See the Wiki page for Windows 7 for more explanation.""
So which one should i use (Windows 10x64) ?
edited 2:06 AM EDT August 21, 2018
- by Nisto at 6:51 AM EDT on August 21, 2018
- > Can you provide your test iso ?
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ccei5hcsndei3a6/mgs-cavern-disc.zip?dl=1
> My 1002 has a first gen modchip so i could also try with your disc and the original Sony BIOS.
> I also have 7502 and 102 consoles i could test on this way.
That would be great! Mine is an SCPH-102, so the comparison should be close there.. I hope.
> So which one should i use (Windows 10x64) ?
I think maybe DirectSound in Exclusive Mode would be best. I didn't read that part about Exclusive Mode until after my recording, so I didn't use it myself, but I'll do that in the future. But honestly, I'm not sure whether the audio host really affects the end result, or if it just affects the latency of the 'live' recording so to speak? Does anyone know?
EDIT: Well, I think I can remove Audacity and all the settings from the equation. I just recorded the track again using both MME and WASAPI with varying buffer lengths (Edit -> Preferences -> Devices) and shift correction, and the difference is negligible. The distance in my recording is still around 2607600 samples, give or take 5 samples. It seems even the hardware (at least my model) has some timing inaccuracies since it does not always produce the same output.
edited 10:23 AM EDT August 21, 2018
- by Squaresoft74 at 7:04 AM EDT on August 22, 2018
- Thanks for the iso i'll make records asap.
In the meantime could this help you ?
http://problemkaputt.de/psx-spx.htm#spuoverview
- by Nisto at 7:27 AM EDT on August 22, 2018
- I reference the no$psx document quite frequently, and believe me I've tried to find something that can help me, but I'm not finding anything. Thanks anyway.
- by Squaresoft74 at 7:36 AM EDT on August 22, 2018
- I'll use these settings:
https://image.noelshack.com/fichiers/2018/34/3/1534937703-audacity.png
Is that ok this way ?
- by Nisto at 7:57 AM EDT on August 22, 2018
- Yeah, it's good don't worry about. As I mentioned, the settings are actually irrelevant for the final recording and comparison.
- by Squaresoft74 at 12:39 AM EDT on August 24, 2018
- Ok first batch, please bookmark this link:
https://mega.nz/#F!6cgnUTAK!XTHk0L7UsbhVkFPZk8NDEQ
I used both your disc and its exe.
CAVERN Scph1002 (Disc) Nocash // Kernel Clone Expansion ROM Version
CAVERN Scph1002 (Disc) Sony // Original Bios
CAVERN Scph1002 (Exe) Nocash // Kernel Clone Expansion ROM Version
Let me know if something is broken between them.
*EDIT 1*
Added :
CAVERN Scph7502 (Disc) Nocash // Kernel Clone Expansion ROM Version
CAVERN Scph7502 (Disc) Sony // Original Bios
CAVERN Scph7502 (Exe) Nocash // Kernel Clone Expansion ROM Version
*EDIT 2*
Added :
CAVERN Scph102 (Disc) Sony // Original Bios
The console used is a v1 (PM-41), more info here if you want to check against yours:
http://www.psxdev.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=9494#p9494
*EDIT 3*
Added :
CAVERN Scph39004 (Disc) Sony // Original Bios (PS2)
CAVERN Scph77004 (Disc) Sony // Original Bios (PS2)
My Scph7002 doesn't have a modchip, let me know if it's worth trying with Nocash's stuff.
*EDIT 4*
Added :
CAVERN Scph1002 (Exe) Xplorer // Original Xplorer ROM
This one is the issue i mentionned in page 1 of this topic.
It will play way too fast regardless what the video mode is set to (PAL/NTSC).
For some reason it only happens with your MGS rip.
Other PSF rips i tried so far will adjust the playback speed according to the video mode set.
Only way to play your rip at proper speed using this rom is to hit reset just after starting to send the exe so it will start the upload before the Xplorer rom's menu gets initialized.
(This applies to all my fat PS1).
edited 3:05 AM EDT August 24, 2018
- by Nisto at 6:39 AM EDT on August 24, 2018
- Wow, this is more than I could've asked for. Thank you! I've compiled an archive with all my comparisons so far for anyone interested. I've done some additional emulator recordings too. I wanted to check your EXE/Xplorer rip in particular but it was too short (I need at least 1 full minute recorded), so I ended up only comparing your Disc/Sony recordings. No big deal though, this should be enough as a reference.
https://mega.nz/#!isIggAyC!Jeyl2LYYm3HvzRewlhkwRWBhEudW4WlhhzHPZf3CrZU
So, when all is said and done, I think I'm satisfied with what I have now. And I think, considering all of these deviations, even between various hardware models, root counter 2 at a target value of 43009 seems like the sweet spot, and I wouldn't regard it as inaccurate per se, since the playback evidently never was consistently reproducible anyway. With root counter 2 set to 43009, it produces the same output time-wise in almost every emulator I've tried. For all conversions from viopsf (all SPU plugins) and Highly Experimental (foo_psf), the distance is 2607461 samples; in Xebra it's 2607457 (5 less); in no$psx it's 2607509 (48 more). In ePSXe however, it's significantly longer, with about 1374 samples more. This may have to do with the root counter not incrementing in some branches, like kode54 mentioned.
Nevertheless, I'll stick with this, and hopefully no one will mind an update to the PSF set. I'll see about miniPSF-ing it and making an 'official' upload for MGS Integral, too.
> Other PSF rips i tried so far will adjust the playback speed according to the video mode set.
My guess is that the other rips you've tried use a root counter instead of SPU interrupts. Final Fantasy 7 and Silent Hill use root counters to name some examples. MGS uses the timing of a key playing a short looped sample at a pitch of 4096 (44100 Hz) instead.
- by Squaresoft74 at 7:28 AM EDT on August 24, 2018
- Thanks for the explanation and glad this could help you.
I can record a longer sample for the "high speed" Xplorer rom version if you want.
Just to make sure, aren't there any issue with uploaded exe/Kernel Clone rips ?
Because if they're fine, i'll stick with this method for later testing needs until i receive my PSIO.
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